[wdte-devel] Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods anyway?

[Fitzpatrick, Alex]

I'm curious about who's signed up and who's recieving, so can we consider
this a ping?

If you'l like to reply with a brief bio that might be interesting.

As you can all see, my name is Alex!

I live and work in the Ottawa/Gatineau area.
I completed a BCS at Carleton University in 1999.
I work for Cognos building enterprise application software, this frequently
involves web technologies hense my interest in using Eclipse and extending
it to support basic web development.


--
Alex Fitzpatrick


"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.



This message may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If you
have received this e-mail in error or are not the intended recipient, you
may not use, copy, disseminate or distribute it; do not open any
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[Simone Ronco]

Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods anyway?Hello,
I'm Ronco Simone
I live in Turin (Italy)
I work for List S.p.A. building web based financial application.

I descovered eclipse few months ago and I'm interested in the develop of this plug-in.

Regards

Simone Ronco

----- Original Message -----
From: Fitzpatrick, Alex
To: 'wdte-***@lists.sourceforge.net'
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 6:56 PM
Subject: [wdte-devel] Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods anyway?


I'm curious about who's signed up and who's recieving, so can we consider this a ping?

If you'l like to reply with a brief bio that might be interesting.

As you can all see, my name is Alex!

I live and work in the Ottawa/Gatineau area.
I completed a BCS at Carleton University in 1999.
I work for Cognos building enterprise application software, this frequently involves web technologies hense my interest in using Eclipse and extending it to support basic web development.



--
Alex Fitzpatrick



"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.




This message may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error or are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy, disseminate or distribute it; do not open any attachments, delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender promptly by e-mail that you have done so. Thank you.

[Christopher Lenz]

Post by Fitzpatrick, Alex
If you'l like to reply with a brief bio that might be interesting.

Well, I live in Mainz, Germany (which is pretty close to Frankfurt).
I'm technically still a computer science student, but I do a lot of
freelance development work, mostly in web development. In the
open-source world, I'm a committer on the Apache-Jakarta projects
Cactus and Slide (although I've not touched the latter for some time
now), and have worked with and contributed to a number of other
projects inside and outside of Apache. I've been interested in
exploring better tool support for modern web development for some time
now, so some sunny day I set off to build csseditor.sourceforge.net,
which will now hopefully be merged into WDTE.

--
Christopher Lenz
/=/ cmlenz at gmx.de

[Mathew Brozowski]

Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods anyway?My name is Matt Brozowski

I live and work in the Raleigh/Durham/RTP area of North Carolina
I have a BS in Applied Math/Computer Science from Carnegie Mellon in 1989
I work for a small startup called Tavve Software doing web-based Network Management software

We use eclipse as our Java Development environment but I have been hoping for something a little better for the webtools end.

--
Matt Brozowski
----- Original Message -----
From: Fitzpatrick, Alex
To: 'wdte-***@lists.sourceforge.net'
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 12:56 PM
Subject: [wdte-devel] Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods anyway?


I'm curious about who's signed up and who's recieving, so can we consider this a ping?

If you'l like to reply with a brief bio that might be interesting.

As you can all see, my name is Alex!

I live and work in the Ottawa/Gatineau area.
I completed a BCS at Carleton University in 1999.
I work for Cognos building enterprise application software, this frequently involves web technologies hense my interest in using Eclipse and extending it to support basic web development.



--
Alex Fitzpatrick



"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.




This message may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error or are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy, disseminate or distribute it; do not open any attachments, delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender promptly by e-mail that you have done so. Thank you.

[Daniele Canteri]

Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods anyway?Hello everybody,

my name is Daniele Canteri. I live and work in Torino, Italy.
I am a colleague of Simone Ronco. We work for List spa, a small company specialized in financial products, some of them based on web applications.
I like Eclipse very much, but I have to fight everyday just to edit some simple jsps, so... here I am.

bye,

daniele

[Tim Reilly]

Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods anyway?Hello,
My name is Tim
I work for a human resource company in FL-US
J2EE (Websphere & Websphere Portal), & Coldfusion Developer
I use WSAD + Homesite/DreamweaverMX at work.
I use Eclipse, at home.

(Time is sparse; I hope to be able to contribute more later on. Mostly
lurking for the time being.)

[warn: free opinions to follow]
IP (intellectual property) issues should be carefully considered in this
work. Violating IP issues is not something open-source developers intend to
do, but taking Jakarta Hivemind's recent on-hold/removal from Apache as a
reminder I suppose. There are lots of potential packages that could be used
in this project so it may be a good idea to have license compatibility
guidelines for contributors. (CPL, ASL, BSD)

One issue that I think prevents some projects from reaching their potential
is a lack of 1) documentation about how to get involved, 2) the ability to
delegate *small* tasks to people who wish to contribute but don't know
enough yet to be effective or don't have too much time.

I'm glad to see some modeling of the project adminstration after
apache.org's style. I think in the end their policies and procedures do very
well. Codehaus is also a very effective organization. Anyhow, modeling after
these organizations means not having to reinvent the wheel.
Some links
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html
http://www.apache.org/dev/
http://wiki.codehaus.org/general/CodehausRules

Any thoughts on using maven ( http://maven.apache.org )?

-TR


-----Original Message-----
From: wdte-devel-***@lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:wdte-devel-***@lists.sourceforge.net]On Behalf Of Simone Ronco
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 1:21 PM
To: wdte-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [wdte-devel] Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods
anyway?


Hello,
I'm Ronco Simone
I live in Turin (Italy)
I work for List S.p.A. building web based financial application.

I descovered eclipse few months ago and I'm interested in the develop of
this plug-in.

Regards

Simone Ronco

----- Original Message -----
From: Fitzpatrick, Alex
To: 'wdte-***@lists.sourceforge.net'
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 6:56 PM
Subject: [wdte-devel] Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods anyway?


I'm curious about who's signed up and who's recieving, so can we
consider this a ping?

If you'l like to reply with a brief bio that might be interesting.

As you can all see, my name is Alex!

I live and work in the Ottawa/Gatineau area.
I completed a BCS at Carleton University in 1999.
I work for Cognos building enterprise application software, this
frequently involves web technologies hense my interest in using Eclipse and
extending it to support basic web development.



--
Alex Fitzpatrick



"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.




This message may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If
you have received this e-mail in error or are not the intended recipient,
you may not use, copy, disseminate or distribute it; do not open any
attachments, delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender
promptly by e-mail that you have done so. Thank you.

[Christopher Lenz]

Post by Tim Reilly
[warn: free opinions to follow]

View other free opinions inline ;-)

Post by Tim Reilly
IP (intellectual property) issues should be carefully considered in
this work. Violating IP issues is not something open-source developers
intend to do, but taking Jakarta Hivemind's recent on-hold/removal
from Apache as a reminder I suppose. There are lots of potential
packages that could be used in this project so it may be a good idea
to have license compatibility guidelines for contributors. (CPL, ASL,
BSD)

I agree that this stuff is important. The ASF is in a different
position though, because it is "incorporated as a membership-based,
not-for-profit corporation" that among other things tries its best to
provide legal protection to its contributors. IANAL, but we don't have
that, if anyone does something wrong here, they can be sued
individually.

(That's also a reason why I would have preferred to contribute to a
project of the future Eclipse foundation, but what the heck.)

Post by Tim Reilly
One issue that I think prevents some projects from reaching their
potential is a lack of 1) documentation about how to get involved, 2)
the ability to delegate *small* tasks to people who wish to contribute
but don't know enough yet to be effective or don't have too much time.

There are many different theories about how to build effective
development communities ;-) Providing "Getting involved" documentation
is important, but I've never seen a delegation model succeed in
open-source. Of course, the other extreme of committers being reluctant
to let non-committers do the work and applying their patches is very
harmful.

Post by Tim Reilly
I'm glad to see some modeling of the project adminstration after
apache.org's style. I think in the end their policies and procedures
do very well. Codehaus is also a very effective organization. Anyhow,
modeling after these organizations means not having to reinvent the
wheel.
Some links
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html 
http://www.apache.org/dev/
http://wiki.codehaus.org/general/CodehausRules

Have you seen the proposed charter for this project?

http://wdte.sourceforge.net/wiki/?page=ProposedCharter

Post by Tim Reilly
Any thoughts on using maven (http://maven.apache.org )?

Well, I for one would be against using Maven, for a couple of reasons:

* Automated builds should only be needed for release and integration
builds, which are done by a limited number people. Everyone else just
uses Eclipse and the runtime workbench. That means that the build
system would be rather minimal, and Ant is more than enough to handle
it. Plus I think there might be some non-standard build steps that
might be more difficult to implement using Maven.

* Eclipse has nice Ant integration (which will be getting even better
in 3.0M7 when Ant 1.6 support is added). For Maven you need to install
and learn a separate plugin.

* I wouldn't want to use Maven to manage the documentation/website. The
xdoc plugin sucks IMHO, there isn't even a DTD to validate the xdocs
against. Just using XHTML and validating against the standard DTDs
gives us better quality control, and because the layout is pure CSS,
customization of the website layout is still easier than with Maven.

* I consider most of the Maven generated reports useless, or at least
of no use to publish on the web site. Stuff like checkstyle checks are
easy to integrate into the Ant build, but we really don't need to
upload the results to the web server.

Cheers,
Chris
--
Christopher Lenz
/=/ cmlenz at gmx.de

[Matt Brozowski]

Post by Christopher Lenz

Post by Tim Reilly
One issue that I think prevents some projects from reaching their
potential is a lack of 1) documentation about how to get involved, 2)
the ability to delegate *small* tasks to people who wish to contribute
but don't know enough yet to be effective or don't have too much time.

There are many different theories about how to build effective
development communities ;-) Providing "Getting involved" documentation
is important, but I've never seen a delegation model succeed in
open-source. Of course, the other extreme of committers being reluctant
to let non-committers do the work and applying their patches is very
harmful.

I think the point Tom is making is not that we figure how to delegate to
people so they do the work for us but instead make it as simple as possible
for people to get involved including those with limited time. I personally
have been unable to contribute to projects that I really enjoyed because the
hurdles of figuring out where I could best contribute were greated than the
time I had allotted to do the work.

I think it is essential to have a number of small tasks on the lists so that
someone who come in and desires to contribute can take a shot at these and
use them to gain experience in developing for the project. It seems to me
that someone who has been able to even in a small way is much more likely to
contribute more in the future.

When I work with new members of development teams here at work. I always
have bugs that I know how to fix. I take them to the code, show them the
problem, show them the solution and them tell them to fix it and verify that
its actually fixed.. This allows them to focus on overcoming the hurdles of
devleopment and test setup, building, debugging, etc. Then they learn the
process of submitting a fix. This goes a long way to getting them 'up and
running' from a contribution perspective. Once they can do all of those
things, they are able to contribute much more readily and in much more
sophisticated ways.

I think this is essential to having true collaboration on this project and
getting more interest in other developers contributing. With thousands of
various projects on sourceforge alone, ours is just one among many that want
development support. If it is onerous to figure out how to get involved, or
if the time requirements to get involved are too high, then developers will
just move on the the next project.

--
Matt Brozowski

[Christopher Lenz]

Post by Matt Brozowski

Post by Christopher Lenz

Post by Tim Reilly
One issue that I think prevents some projects from reaching their
potential is a lack of 1) documentation about how to get involved, 2)
the ability to delegate *small* tasks to people who wish to
contribute
but don't know enough yet to be effective or don't have too much time.

There are many different theories about how to build effective
development communities ;-) Providing "Getting involved" documentation
is important, but I've never seen a delegation model succeed in
open-source. Of course, the other extreme of committers being
reluctant
to let non-committers do the work and applying their patches is very
harmful.

I think the point Tom is making is not that we figure how to delegate to
people so they do the work for us but instead make it as simple as possible
for people to get involved including those with limited time. I personally
have been unable to contribute to projects that I really enjoyed because the
hurdles of figuring out where I could best contribute were greated than the
time I had allotted to do the work.
I think it is essential to have a number of small tasks on the lists so that
someone who come in and desires to contribute can take a shot at these and
use them to gain experience in developing for the project. It seems to me
that someone who has been able to even in a small way is much more likely to
contribute more in the future.

I completely agree. I think that over time the issue tracker should
contain a lot of open issues that can be investigated by people who
want to participate. That's simply a matter of the committers not
having all the time in the world to work on this project, rather than
issues being left open intentionally.

Post by Matt Brozowski
When I work with new members of development teams here at work. I always
have bugs that I know how to fix. I take them to the code, show them the
problem, show them the solution and them tell them to fix it and verify that
its actually fixed.. This allows them to focus on overcoming the hurdles of
devleopment and test setup, building, debugging, etc. Then they learn the
process of submitting a fix. This goes a long way to getting them 'up and
running' from a contribution perspective. Once they can do all of those
things, they are able to contribute much more readily and in much more
sophisticated ways.

This is a nice model for commercial development, but in open-source you
can't tell a contributor to go fix issue #65879. In addition, we want
to fix issues we know how to fix (and have the time to fix) because we
want to build a great product, and a great product attracts users and
thus potential contributors.

Post by Matt Brozowski
I think this is essential to having true collaboration on this project and
getting more interest in other developers contributing. With
thousands of
various projects on sourceforge alone, ours is just one among many that want
development support. If it is onerous to figure out how to get involved, or
if the time requirements to get involved are too high, then developers will
just move on the the next project.

Well, people don't come to SourceForge and look at the lists of
projects to find interesting ones to which they may want to contribute.
I think that most contributors come from the users of the product
developed by the project team. Users find an issue that annoys them, or
have an idea for enhancement. Some will post to the forum, others will
submit issues to the tracker. Some might prepare a patch that fixes the
issue (or implements the functionality they need). Some might be guided
to provide a patch.

The important prerequisites for this model to work are (IMHO):

* Open, active discussion on the developer mailing lists. If the
vision, development plan and current work items of the project are
locked away in their heads of the developers, or discussed in private
or non-archived forums such as IRC or IM, potential contributors will
get the impression that there's some inner circle with secret plans,
and that impression will scare many away.

* Provide documentation on how to get involved, including information
on how to check code out from CVS, how to prepare patches, how to get
the patches in the hands of the project committers.

* Give potential contributors the feeling that they can influence the
project. Review and apply patches as soon as possible. Nominate regular
contributors to be given committer status.

I hope that some of this spirit is captured in the proposed project
charter.

Cheers,
Chris
--
Christopher Lenz
/=/ cmlenz at gmx.de

[Vasanth Dharmaraj]

Hi Everyone,

I am Vasanth Dharmaraj. I am from India currently working in Belgium. I
develop web based j2ee applications for a living. I had contributed a
bit to the SolarEclipse project a while back.

Regards.
Vasanth

Vasanth Dharmaraj
HYPERLINK
"http://www.vasanthdharmaraj.com/"http://www.vasanthdharmaraj.com


-----Original Message-----
From: wdte-devel-***@lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:wdte-devel-***@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Daniele
Canteri
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 12:37 PM
To: wdte-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [wdte-devel] Census - Or who are all these hoopy froods
anyway?

Hello everybody,

my name is Daniele Canteri. I live and work in Torino, Italy.
I am a colleague of Simone Ronco. We work for List spa, a small company
specialized in financial products, some of them based on web
applications.
I like Eclipse very much, but I have to fight everyday just to edit some
simple jsps, so... here I am.

bye,

daniele


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